Punishment! What are you stupid?

Recently a mailing list has been discussing punishment. The usual arguments have come up and the usual “you don’t need to punish adults” and “if you need to punish your submissive then maybe you should get a smarter one” silliness.

However ignoring those there is usually still some discussion worth having with the few people who are somewhat open minded. Here is one response of mine that’s worth keeping and linking to my earlier comments on the topic.

posted to [email protected] on 06.04.2004 @ 13:16 by soulhuntre

[ Someone commented on punishment, giving an example of a girl being assigned  the task of a number of pull-ups and failing at that task. They then discussed responses to that failure in context of punishment or education or training ]

Let’s go along with that example, though it is not one I would have used. Let’s expand on it because I think it leads into interesting areas. In general, I doubt we disagree in practice as much as it seems.

The goal is to develop her pull-up abilities. She is assigned an exercise regimen to do so. She follows it well, but on a particular day she makes an erroneous decision to not do it. I know my girls live a complex life, balancing multiple responsibilities of my creation and they are often called upon to make judgment calls under difficult circumstances.

From what I have seen, others on this list allow for only two possibilities in such an event. Both of them “pure”.

The first is that she simply misunderstood the circumstances in which such a failure to work out was permissible. Perhaps she felt that another task would be the one you would prefer. In this case she is completely “innocent” and only discussion would be warranted.

The second is that the relationship is fatally flawed, the submissive is to be dismissed and you need to destroy all that had been accomplished.

And people call me a hard ass 🙂

I happen to see a grey space between those two. Obviously I would not tolerate willful and deliberate disobedience, but humans are not that simple a creature. Humans make wrong decisions for a wide variety of factors, and some of them may indicate a mindset or priority system that needs adjustment.

In such a case I would probably simply double her work out for a week. This is assuming not that she had made a deliberate, willfully disobedient act but that the part of her that has to make snap decisions is perhaps confused about how the priorities are set.

The benefits are simple, she works out harder AND they part of her that may well be confused as to the priorities involved become clear on how important it is to me.

Obviously if she had all the time in the world to think it all through for each and every decision she had to make that day she would have probably come to the right conclusion regarding the issues. But she doesn’t have that kind of time in my world… many decisions must be made “on the fly”. It is very useful for me to be able to adjust the relative weight she gives different issues >at an intuitive, gut level<.

Punishment, negative consequence, does that nicely.

The reality is that my style of using my property is not, in my experience, the common one though it is the norm among my peers. My demands are different being both stricter in that I expect their actions to closely track the optimal and more open-ended. I expect things to be right but I cannot predict every conflicting issue and every situation they may encounter.

My girls are responsible to me (of course) but have secondary responsibilities to as many as three other people of my designation (at this moment). They have to perform well in ways that allow for conscious thought and decision making (business, most social interaction) and in ways that happen far below the conscious (every nuance of body language, tone, position, language, sexual offering and so on). That results in many, many “decisions” that happen in fractions of a second while being distracted by other issues.

I do not consider it a sign of stupidity if they get it wrong sometimes 🙂

I am both harder and more forgiving than some. I basically am always adjusting their actions and processes to more closely suit the ideal. But I have a speed in between “no problem” and “you’re out of here”.

:: shrugs :: No one else has to follow with that, but I am pretty amused if people think that a little actual human complexity indicates that my property is stupid or retarded 🙂

A more common example is tone of voice:

My girls are responsible to be cheerful, enthusiastic and respectful in every moment they speak. Failure to do so draws a punishment. That punishment may be a simple rebuke, or a look, or a termination of conversation. The consequence is negative, and intended to be so. This is different than me simply saying “I would prefer you say it this way” and imparting information about the mistake, but not attaching a negative bias to it.

Once again, if they are not being called upon to speak much and provide only simple responses then the nuances of vocal tone are easy to control. When a human mind is prepared, forewarned and concentrating it can over-ride the deeper patterns.

However under stress, while involved in conversation and interrupted and called upon for rapid responses sometimes by 3-4 other people in fast order they do not have the luxury of a conscious mental “edit” of what they say and how they say it. Under such circumstances it is easy for frustration, annoyance, fatigue or lack of enthusiasm to manifest itself as a slip in tone… slight though it may be.

Body language and tone make for very good examples of this difference in expectation and control. Many people simply ignore the smaller flaws in such behavior… they them outside of the things they hold their submissive responsible for and chalk it up to them being “human”. In those relationships then I am not surprised that negative re-enforcement and punishment have no place.

If the standards you demand of your property are ones that cover only those things she has conscious control over, and only during those times when she is free to concentrate on them or has the time to make a studies and thoughtful decision then the binary view makes perfect sense. Under such a system she is either stupid or willfully disobedient.

On the other hand if the standards you hold cover more ground, them more complexity starts to creep in.

I can give you a non-BDSM example from just last night.

At my Dojo we are working on blocking drills. One of the points of a blocking drill is to teach someone how to block an attack but also when NOT to block an attack. In this case, it is an attack to the face and head.

It is important that a block ONLY be thrown when it is actually needed. If you are on too much of a hair trigger then your reflex becomes a weakness… a attack will be faked, you will block (leaving your self open somewhere else) and you will get pounded in the ribs.

The thing is no amount of EXPLAINING that before hand will solve the problem. Discussions are great things for altering reactions that one has the luxury of conscious decision making on… but a discussion is almost useless for altering reactions and patterns that are below or outside of conscious, intellectual control. For that, you need to make the alterations on that lower level.

My students are neither stupid nor are they willfully disobedient. They are smart, adult men and women. They have heard and understand WHY they must block at specific times. They understand the theory, the have seen the demonstrations.

Most of them will still, for a while, make the blocks at the wrong time. Because the response is not happening at a conscious level. The discussions, the conversations, they explanations literally cannot effect the part of the brain that is in question.

Now, if I tell them “I am going to attack your face, but I will not hit you, do not block my hand” they can repress the reflex by an action of conscious will. But if they are distracted they lose that crutch and they can be drawn into the fake. So in the end their conscious mind cannot help them in this task.

What will change it? Practice. Repetition. Drills. They need to stand there and get attacked. They need the “punishment” of a gentle tap to the ribs to begin the process of altering their pattern… making the part of their brain that controls such things aware of the problem.

Then they spar. And they fuck it up all over again. Why? Because now they don’t have the luxury of concentration. Now they have to think about strategy, attacks of their own, movement, their place on the mat, the pressure of their peers… and bang, they get faked.  Time sparring will fix that.

Ultimately, they learn. Ultimately the responses are re-wired. But the explanations and discussions didn’t do that. The discussions and explanations helped them drill. It helped them practice. It started the process, but it could never have put the finishing touches on it.

There is a reason why humans have to practice things. If that were not so fighter pilots would only need book learning, not flight time.

The human mind is, it turns out, a physical expression of a neural network. Physical changes happen in response to reward and punishment, connections that with repetition deepen. They get faster, they get more automatic. People who are experienced drivers literally have physical places in their brain that can handle a multitude of driving tasks for them. Those centers were created by repetition and punishment. What punishment? The fear and adrenaline of close calls. The rebukes of your instructor. Things you wish to avoid on a level beyond the simply intellectual.

As long as I demand a level of performance that includes the correct response out of humans in areas that are not under completely conscious control. As long as I demand that level of performance regardless of distractions. As long as I am dealing with controlling, shaping and using the responses that live in those little neural pattern clusters… I will need to punish and reward to get what I want.

It doesn’t make my property stupid or disobedient. When my students “fall for” a fake attack and block at the wrong time they are not stupid or disobedient. It makes them human.