Money, morality and slavery…

The below is an additional post I put up in the discussion I referred to before.

(name deleted) – I do understand what you are saying. I simply disagree with not only your core premise but your conclusions. Once again, while it is a tragedy that someone is having trouble finding work, I am unclear by what moral right they somehow gain a claim on what is mine because of this.

I have in the past and will continue in the future to help those who have problems directly and indirectly. I do so because I CHOOSE to do it. I do it freely. However the moment someone claims they have the right to confiscate what I have to service those who have not, I will fight to keep it.

I will not revisit your claims of a globe spanning conspiracy to control and manipulate the poor of the world in any detail, because there is still no evidence of either a motive, means or method.

(other name deleted) – Greed is, to quote a movie, good. Greed unbounded by ethics is clearly a problem. However the core desire to want more than you have, to want better than you have, to wish to improve your situation is not only good but admirable and noble.

Your point about common utilities and services is valid insofar as this – it makes sense for those things to be funded by payments from all who use them. The usual form of this is a tax. However where we go wrong is when you decide that it is somehow right to take disproportionately from me simply because you decide that I can afford it. Whether I am spending my money on food, hookers or burning it to make smoke signals does not in any way effect your lack of a right to demand to take what is mine.

The very moment a society decides that it will only let me keep what it thinks I am entitled to it attempt to make me it’s slave – and I refuse to accept its right to do so.

As for the argument (common to you and name deleted) that somehow the wealthy are a self perpetuating class of folks and that the poor cannot rise to join them the reality is starkly different. The vast, vast majority of millionaires in this country are self made, first generation. Does opportunity play a part? Sure… fate is funny like that. However so does skill, drive, determination, discipline and many other factors.

However, let’s look at the issue of inheritance and legacy. If I have earned my money I am not at all sure why I should not be allowed to use it to raise the standard of living for anyone I damn well please including my future family members. Why should it be a stain on them that they had a ancestor who was both capable and willing to amass some wealth for their benefit. Once again I wonder… what about that somehow makes them less human and less morally entitled to the ownership of their own property?

You both keep attempting to make the same basic arguments.

• That the poor have it hard
• That the poor face additional impediments to raising there station than those who were born with more resources do

You keep stressing those points as if somehow I do not understand or agree with them. That this lack of understanding or agreement somehow is the basis for my believe in the rights of individuals to be free from the confiscation of their property. You seem to feel that if I could but understand these points I would agree.

I don’t. It still doesn’t make moral sense to forcibly confiscate from those that own something to satisfy the needs of others.

I do know what it is like to be poor. I do know what it is like in the slums. It doesn’t change a damn thing. I am all for trying to help those folks – hell, I will even voluntarily contribute (and I do, just like millions and millions of others who can afford to do) to help them. But they have no right to demand anything I own.

Let us picture two men… one is starving, the other is clearly not and getting ready to eat his 5th sandwich of the afternoon. The starving man has absolutely no innate right to so much as a crumb from the other man, not a single one. In short your need does not give you the innate right to take from others. Now, would I give the starving man my sandwich? Of course, and I have. Would I think badly of a man who would not share under those circumstances? Of course, and I have. I would support helping the starving man right up until a mob came up and attempted to steal the food from the richer man to give to the poor. Then I would defend him because once the mob decides they can ignore your right to property then nothing will stop them from confiscating anything they wish.

You are incorrect about what separates us from animals by the way. What separates men from them, and the fundamental right from which all others flow is a simple one. You must be free from the tyranny of your fellow men… they must not be allowed to take what they desire from you by force. Owning something (money, food, property) is not the flaw in a system of freedom – it is the basis for it. Until I am free from the predations of others I have no rights at all.

I am happy to share – and I do. The fundamental basis for sharing however is that it is voluntary, not forced. Forced sharing is theft and slavery.

You may live the "life of" a slave in your opinion – but you are not a slave. You have to work hard to provide for yourself and those you have responsibility for just like 99% of the planet – that is not slavery. I do not lack sympathy for your plight, however nothing in it gives you the right to demand the ability to confiscate (via the government, backed up by the physical force of the police) to take what I have earned.

Ask for help and I will gladly try and provide it. Hell, give me a PayPal address and I will send you enough money for a meal or two before the end of the day. I have an old computer that is too slow for my needs but might suit yours… I will even pay to ship it to you. If someone else has a spare hard drive we can get you a working machine. I am HAPPY to try and help.

What I will NOT do, what I will NOT tolerate is a morality that says your need trumps my rights. As a free man in a free society I will always try and improve the lives I can. As a forced slave in the grip of a mob that demands my property I will refuse.” – Soulhuntre about 5 hours ago

Enjoy!